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Moved from Math Overflow due to not being regarded as a high degree of research

Note: I am looking in particular at real valued/real input functions at all values regardless of differentiability.

In this question a series of axioms or postulates governing calculus are proposed. Granted, that is abstract calculus rather than real number calculus.

Is there any known way to write a similar set of postulates governing real number calculus involving derivatives, integrals, and (ideally) allowing the construction of differential equations but with the following statement selected as one of the axioms without redundancy or contradiction?

"if and only if a function is constant does it have a derivative of 0 for all real numbers"

My ultimate purpose is to negate the aforementioned axiom and so having a complete set of axioms would make it convenient for me to convey the actual meaning behind negating the statement since one can ultimately fall back upon the statements similar to how we developed non-Euclidean geometry.

Some potential axioms that might be relevant that I thought of were:

"All elements of a derivation set are the inverse of the antiderivative where defined"

(might be better proposed as a conjecture) The derivation set of any function may not equal the empty set.

Update:

After discussing this with a few others more deeply, and noticing some non-uniqueness properties and things I've realized that the derivative need not be unique given the sort of things I would want to exist. Therefore, the following definitions deal with that issue:

A derivation set is a set of a functions that can potentially result from differentiation being applied to some function.

A derivative is an operator whose results from being applied to some function is some element of the derivation set for that function.

In this sense altered forms of derivatives would be solutions sets of functions that satisfy some equation rather than necessarily a unique operator. However, the equation itself is probably not something trivially apparent by my guess or something one could derive in a quick manner.

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    You should probably start at the epsilon-delta method of limits.2017-01-01
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    @SimpleArt you probably misunderstood the question a bit then. The question is about defining the derivative from abstract properties. The epsilon-delta formula would then not be a definition but rather be a theorem derived from the axiom. I'm not defining the derivative formulaicly but rather by a series of properties. Does that make sense?2017-01-01
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    Not too much, but perhaps linear functions?2017-01-01
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    @SimpleArt im sorry but that post didn't make sense. What do you mean by linear. Also, I mean that I'm defining the derivative as it's properties rather by a formula with the sum of the properties creating the derivative. Like how euclidean geometry can be defined via Euclid's postulates but how in reality Euclid's postulates might not uniquely determine a plane. We just assume it to be narrowed down enough to be assumed as the derivative.2017-01-01
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    I'm not good with axioms and all, but it is the case that if $P(x)$ is a polynomial with arbitrary rational exponents and is non-linear, then $Q(x)$ is the derivative of $P(x)$ for $x\in A$ iff $P(x)-Q(c)x-b$ has a root of multiplicity greater than or equal to $2$ at $x=c$ for all $c\in A$. This can then probably be extended to give statements about derivatives of analytic functions.2017-01-01
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    I would mention that In normed vector spaces you define the derivative for a dense subset (e.g. the polynomials or the analytic functions) and extend it by linearity and norm closure. ([$L^p, L^\infty$](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lp_space),[$H^1$](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobolev_space#The_case_p_.3D_2)..) @SimpleArt2017-01-01
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    @SimpleArt That is very interesting information. I never knew that. Thank you! However, I'm not real sure if that could be an axiom. An important assurance is that (at the very least) none of the axioms depend upon the truthfulness of "if and only if a function is constant does it have a derivative of 0 for all real numbers". Otherwise, any negation of that statement will create contradictions in certain situations. In essence, the axioms should be logically independent in a similar sort of manner to how one says variables are independent and don't depend on each other.2017-01-01
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    I do not see the connection. Note my comment requires $P(x)$ to be non-linear, so a constant function is actually beyond its grasp.2017-01-01
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    The original MO question is http://mathoverflow.net/questions/258375/is-there-a-set-of-axioms-governing-calculus-that-include-this-particular-axiom-a2017-01-01
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    See also http://mathoverflow.net/questions/44774/do-these-properties-characterize-differentiation and http://mathoverflow.net/questions/157847/algebraic-characterization-of-real-differentiation and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A4hler_differential2017-01-14

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Disclaimer: Not a full answer, my notation is bad, and I'm horrible with this axiom stuff. See to the end for a half-decent explanation of why this works and I hope it ends up useful.

If $P(x^d)$ is polynomial with integer exponents (including negative) and non-linear for some natural number $d$, then $Q(x)$ is the derivative of $P(x)$ over the domain if $f(x^d)$ has a root of multiplicity greater than or equal to $2$ at $x^d=c$, where $f(x)=P(x)-Q(c)x-b$ and $b=P(c)-Q(c)c$.

For example, if $P(x)=x^2$ and $Q(x)=2x$, then, notice that

$$f(x)=x^2-2cx+c^2=(x-c)^2$$

It has a root with multiplicity $2$ at $x=c$, so $Q(x)$ is the derivative of $P(x)$.

Similarly, if $P(x^2)=x$ with $x\in[0,+\infty)$ and $Q(x)=\frac12x^{-1/2}$, then

$$f(x^2)=x-\frac12c^{-1/2}x^2-\frac12c^{1/2}=-\frac12c^{-1/2}(x^2-c)^2$$

which has a root of multiplicity $2$ at $x^2=c$.

It is also not necessary that this be used merely for checking derivatives, for example, if $P(x)=x^3$, then

$$f(x)=x^3-Q(c)x-c^3+Q(c)c\equiv(x-a)(x-c)^2$$

this guarantees a root of multiplicity greater than or equal to $2$ at $x=c$. Upon expanding and such, you should find $Q(x)=3x^2$.

If one is able to derive that $Q(c)$ is unique from this, then the sum of derivatives rule is derivable.


So I thought of this when I first entered a Calculus class, whereupon I got to see the fundamental definition of a derivative in what I would call regular space or beginner space. The definition was basically that a derivative is the slope of a tangent line, which is by definition, the limit of secant lines.

But rather than evaluating limits, I looked at the more algebraic side of this and realized that if we are differentiating an algebraic function, then it is necessarily the case that I can solve for where the secant line intersects the original function. And by the conjugate roots theorem, I can deduce how many roots (not necessarily distinct) there are, or how many times it crosses the function.

But clearly, if we are taking the limit as two roots approach $x=c$, then it is the case that a tangent line should have a root of multiplicity equal to or greater than $2$ at $x=c$.

And then I modified this for arbitrary rational exponents and negative exponents.

This is also clearly correct for analytic functions thanks to Taylor's theorem, though I haven't seen it useful there since you can't "factor" functions that aren't polynomials.

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    Hmmm.... very interesting and unique! i definitely like it. Thank you. I'd have to check carefully to see if I can find co-dependence but this does seem like an independent statement. Probably going to check the negation of the axiom I have: "if and only if a function is nonlinear does it have a derivative of 0 for all real numbers" as the lack of a contradiction with your axiom (whatever it would be more compressed stated) would be strong enough for me to say (atm) that it is likely a good addition to the independent set. :)2017-01-01
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    @TheGreatDuck Glad it helps in some strange way, as strange as it is.2017-01-01
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    Using the potential counter-example axiom I acquire the following example: P(x) = x^2 and Q(x) = 0. Therefore, b = c^2 and f(x) = x^2 - c^2 = (x + c)(x - c). I think that implies a contradiction of your statement. Is that right? Is there a double root at c? :/ (note: this does feel less blatantly wrong as the addition and multiplication rules so this rule is probably closer to what I need)2017-01-01
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    @TheGreatDuck This does not have double root at $c$. It has two roots of multiplicity $1$ each at $x=c,x=-c$.2017-01-01
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    Well than that means the negation of the first axiom and this axiom contradict which means they are not independent. However, this is definitely less dependent than the other more well-known choices for axioms. Maybe there is something small that might get around that issue while still being true? I'll look at it and see if maybe a slight change can fix it. :)2017-01-01
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    @TheGreatDuck What do you mean? Are you saying that my "axiom" forces only constant functions to have $0$ as the derivative? Note that my "axiom" is restrained to polynomials.2017-01-01
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    Yeah, somehow someway the truthfulness of them is linked. If one is false, then the other is likewise false.2017-01-01
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    Note that my axiom also directly implies that the derivative is not 0 for other functions. Your axiom probably implies that the derivative of a polynomial is never 0.2017-01-01
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    @TheGreatDuck But mine does not imply the converse. Mine is independent of yours, is it not?2017-01-01
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    If the statements were independent then negating either of them would not create a contradiction....2017-01-01
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    @TheGreatDuck What do you mean by negating? Are you saying that by having the derivative of some non-constant function to be $0$ that my statement is false? But what if this non-constant function is not within the scope of my statement? I see no contradictions one way or another.2017-01-01
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    Keep in mind, I'm not used to logical statements, so if what you say is blatantly obvious, I apologize in advance.2017-01-01
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    What I'm basically doing is proof by contradiction. I'm replacing a statement with another statement that is always false in relation to it. If one is true then the other is false, period. For two logical statements to be independent, it shouldn't matter whether one of them is the true version or a false version as the truthfulness of the first has no bearing on the other axiom. However, it doesn't which means that by proof by contradiction our two axioms can prove each other (or at least portions of each other).2017-01-01
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    And yeah it is a normal obvious thing. Basically if you've ever seen non-Euclidean geometry it's the whole argument behind the parallel postulate (except in that case there were literally only two possible negations)2017-01-01
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    If this answer doesn't receive a full answer within a weeks time then I will award the recent bounty to you. Either way, your axiom is an intriguing and very great accomplishment. Just because it failed doesn't make it any less amazing as an attempt. By all means you would deserve the bounty. So don't feel bad later if it goes to you. :-)2017-01-09
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    @TheGreatDuck oh, ok. Thanks, I suppose. :-)2017-01-09
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    @TheGreatDuck And thus almost concludes the bounty sadly. :-(2017-01-16
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    Oh well, I think the much weaker version of my needs (written as a currently closed follow-up question) is much easier and does not have the same issues.2017-01-16
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    @TheGreatDuck If you want, I can re-apply the bounty (can I do that when I've already answered this question?)2017-01-16
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    Ah, its nice to see at least some progress be made.2017-01-16
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    I think you can. It's up to you. It doesn't matter to me. To be frank, this was an attempt to formalize a concept I've had in my mind for quite some time. So, it might just be that the rules need not be independent. It might be that some of them are compatible with the rules I have in mind and as such I can tweak them just enough to make it work. As long I can prove diff. eq. solutions in the other system I don't care as much about independent axioms. I don't intend to re-negate an axiom. XD As for this question... do what you will. This might be truly not answerable by this audience.2017-01-16
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    XD Ok then. :-P Sucks when bounties go unanswered IMO... maybe I should focus on them a bit.2017-01-16
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    Yeah, that's true but some questions that are totally useless may in fact be harder to answer than the Reimann Hypothesis. I doubt that's the case, but this is a question based on insight, not process.One either knows or does not know. Therefore, a proof of it requires one to have either already solved it or for a process of adjusting axioms to exist. I doubt the common populace here have either of those skills. Therefore, a bounty might lure out those with the needed skills/knowledge.That didn't happen; therefore, the only logical thing to conclude is that nobody here can answer the question.2017-01-16
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    @TheGreatDuck Or they are on vacation.2017-01-16
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    Fair enough. But the thing about mathematics is that one can devise the trickiest questions or the most insane problems. However, whether or not anyone exist that can solve a certain problem is a much more difficult thing to anticipate. It won't surprise me if this question never gets solved.2017-01-16
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    @TheGreatDuck Lol, you should put it in your profile description. That way it gets more attention in the future ;-)2017-01-16
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    maybe. I might do that.2017-01-16